TEXASBOARS.COM

[sam lawhon]

Ok so I am looking at having an AR built for me and wanted to run the specs by yall to get your input.
Upper: Wilson, bull barrel,(not sure which model), in .223 topped with a nikon coyote special 4.5x14x40. Oh yeah and I haven't decided how long the I want the barrel so give me yalls suggestions. Also the twist rate of the barrel is 1:9.
Lower: Del-ton receiver, looking at a magpul PRS stock, and panther tactical grip with palm rest.
So what do yall think?
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God Bless Our Troops!!!!!

[Burt]

I'm old school when it comes to .223, and I use 20 inch barrels.
That M-4 16 inch stuff seems to be all the rage anymore though.
I feel the more muzzle velocity you can get, the better off you are in .223 caliber.
Especially since you mentioned 300 to 400 yards.
Also note some of the predator / varmint models even use 24 inch barrels in .223...
_________________
Ban guns to eliminate crime ?
Let's ban cars, to eliminate drunk driving.
Makes as much sense.

[Burt]

Bushmaster:

24" Varminter Upper Receiver/Barrel Assembly
This Assembly - from our very accurate Varminter - features a 24" Fluted Extra Heavy Barrel in 5.56mm/.223 Rem. caliber with 11 degree competition crown; heavyweight 1" diameter under the handguard; custom match hybrid chamber with a tighter SAAMI Spec headspace from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face, and longer chamber throat or "Leade". This accommodates 5.56mm ammunition without developing higher pressures encountered when firing 5.56mm ammo in a .223 chamber with shorter "Leade" (both calibers can be used safely). Rifling is 1 in 9" twist for optimum performance with most lighter bullet weight varmint cartridges, and the barrel is fluted to increase cooling and reduce weight. The Varminter Upper's shell ejection path has been modified to drop all your brass in the same place as a convenience for the reloader. A vented forend with bipod/sling stud installed, free-floats the barrel from the barrel nut forward and B.M.A.S. Mini-Risers add 1/2" to scope height for correct sight picture and comfortable cheek weld. This Upper is sold complete with Bolt, Bolt Carrier and Charging Handle to ensure positive lockup between bolt and barrel extension.

Part No: PURVMB 24FVAR9
_________________
Ban guns to eliminate crime ?
Let's ban cars, to eliminate drunk driving.
Makes as much sense.

[David K]

i had a Bushmaster Varmint gun with 24" barrel, waaayyyy too long, ok if you are shooting off a rest or bipod, not not for carrying around and hunting

even the 20" barrel is too long for most of my purposes...I have an Olympic ARMS PCR-16, now called the K16...it is a bull barrel 16" and I don't even like carrying it...

the speed isn't much more jumping from 16 to 18 to 20", but it is some, but with the right powder charge and bullet combination you can offset the different somewhat

I'm not a fan of bull barrels in anything anymore, if you were sitting on a bench and shooting prairie dogs one after another and heating the barrel up, then I would get a bull barrel to dissapate the heat, if not I would stick with a standard barrel

alot of configurations you could go with, you will get more velocity with a longer barrel, I just don't like the length and portability, and shooting at longer distances with a 16" barrel that shoots 1 MOA makes it capability of taking a 300 yard shot on a coyote....

I would also stick with a 1:9 twist barrel, it is good overall for the bullets selections out there, the wilson barrels are good match grade barrels, but I will tell you that I hate that Panther Tactical Grip, it is bulky, too big for my hands, and limits your hand movement on the bottom, think there are alot of other things out there that are better and I would even opt for a stock grip any day over a Panther and the similar type grips

who is going to build the gun for you?

[Burt]

The .223 benefits from a longer barrel more than a 6.8 SPC does for sure.
But as I said, short barrels are all the rage now.
_________________
Ban guns to eliminate crime ?
Let's ban cars, to eliminate drunk driving.
Makes as much sense.

[David K]

[sam lawhon]

The guys name is Keith Marrulo. He said that he can get a regular barrel in 16" would that be better? Bottom line is im looking for whatever is the most accurate.
Thanks, Sam
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God Bless Our Troops!!!!!

[David K]

the max length fom wilson is 18", they do make a 16". Here is all there barrels:

http://shopwilsoncombat.com/556-NATO/products/394/

here is the one i would get and then add the the black finish:

http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Match-Grade-Barrel-556-NATO-Recon-16-1-9-Twist-Stainless-Fluted/productinfo/TR-556RC16F-19/

I don't see a standard non-fluted barrel in 16" and not the lightweight version, the one above is fluted, but i'm sure a call to Wilson will straighten that out

[Ron Myers]

David, can you save a bunch of money building the upper yourself and if so how difficult is it to put the barrel and receiver together?

I know you have to have a vise barrel block and a barrel torque wrench. Would it be difficult for an amateur?

[David K]

Ron,
Couple of things, with the finishes on different upper receivers, sometimes hard to get the barrel in there, depending on tolerances....not that this has to be done, as probably 99% of the people out there do not do this, but I 'face' the front of my receivers and lap them...this just squares the receivers...

is it cheaper to build one, sure, but not by much if you are buying a complete upper, if you buy a complete gun you will usually save a bunch...just because of Federal Excise Tax (FET).

yea you need a upper receiver block to hold in place in the vice and you do need a barrel nut wrench. But it does't stop there, I don't want to steal Sam's thread, so others please comment on Sam's thread if you have advice or comments on his build, please.

You can build a upper and lower with tools in your garage, but a minimum get a few things:
-Upper receiver action block
example: http://www.fulton-armory.com/actionblockcombokitforupperandlowerreceiver-2.aspx
-AR-15 Armorers wrench
example: http://www.fulton-armory.com/armorersmulti-wrenchsteel.aspx
-Roll Pin Holder set
example: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=781/Product/ROLL-PIN-HOLDERS
- Carbine Buttstock wrench if you plan on putting a carbine stock
example: http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ARR186-7.html

This is minimal to setup AR's, there are many other tools depending if you want to do other things or enhance....barrel vices, lower receiver block (not needed to assemble lower), headspace gauges, etc etc etc.

not a simple task to assemble an AR if you haven't done before, but alot of fun and very satisfying and you learn how to accurize them, but some things are just easier to buy with reasonable accuracy, and if you don't plan on owning a bunch, probably not worth it, but sure is alot of fun

if you want to learn all about building AR's:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/226782_Assemble_your_own_LOWER__UPPER__FREE_FLOAT__TRIGGER__GAS_BLOCK___Step_by_step_instructions_.html

[Ron Myers]

Thanks David!

[David K]

[sam lawhon]

Thanks so much for your help David!
So will the 16" barrel be more or less accurate at long range then say a 24" barrel and if there is a difference then how big is it? I sent him an email asking him if he was talking about getting a Wilson barrel. Does the bull barrel add accuracy or just weight and a longer lasting barrel. Thanks for answering all of my stupid questions!
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God Bless Our Troops!!!!!

[David K]

none of those questions are stupid, a bull barrel is not more accurate than a standard barrel for the most part, however they have a tendacy to defeat barrel harmonics better than a standard barrel....there is a whole factor when considering barrels....for instance, it is proven fact that a POF 308 16" barrel is more accurate with almost every load than a 20" barrel (thats why I own a 16")...why, barrel harmonics....the barrel basically whiplashes, there are impluses that travel down the barrel at different magnitudes....you can do a seach on the internet for more explanation and/or Burt can jump in here as i'm sure he is pretty versed in it....

back to the length of a barrel, alot comes in to play with that also....mainly caliber and twist rate. Larger/faster calibers often require a longer barrel to be most efficient to burn the powder charge, that doesn't mean you can't make them accurate with a shorter barrel....which next comes in to play, twist rate, the standard military M16 twist rate was 1:7", this faster twist stabilizes heavy bullets, it was made to stabilize i believe the tracer rounds that are loaded with the standard 55gr FMJ's and I believe many of the pentrator (steel) core bullets were 69gr. The 1:7" twist was barely enough to stabilize the 55gr, more optimal is the 1:9" twist, many people use a 1:8" twist for the 68gr and so on match bullets...

that being said, you can get more velocity out of a barrel that is longer, depending on bullet and twist rate....but unless you plan on being a sniper, you can shoot a long ways with a 16" barrel. Consider something when you are making your decision, what do you plan to hunt and what is the 'majority' of your shots going to be, how far? A .223 is not an ideal hog or deer gun, but as noted in many threads and sticky's in this for, it can be done, but its up to the shooter. If a majority of your shots are going to be in the 300 yard and under range, 16" is fine, again with well placed shots. Generally accuracy is not dependent on barrel length, it is dependent on all those things i mentioned above as twist rate, load, bullet, harmonics and of course how well the gun is built. Certain barrels (manufacturer) are more accurate than others.

If possible, if there is a large dealer that is near you, go in and check out the lengths of the guns and see how the different guns, with different barrel lengths, etc. feel to you. I know you may not have that in your area, but if you do, go check them out. I shot alot of coyotes, fox, and bobcat with my Bushmaster Vmatch 24", then I realized how much I hated carrying that thing and sold it to one of my police buddies when I got him in to varmint hunting, and after another season and shooting some of my 16" guns, he switched. If you plan on walking any distance, you will appreciate the shorter and lighter gun....also, depending on a stand you may site in, one with windows, if the gun is just perched in a window, longer barrels are fine, if you have to put it out of one and put in another, pain. I like the balance of a 16" for offhand shooting, but longer barrels work better on a bag or a one point type shooting platform, since they are longer, the balance better in those situations.

Alot of factors...a comprosmise could be a 18" barrel, alot of people like them. A 24" to me is purely a bench rest, blind or don't-have-to-walk-very-far-gun....

[Burt]

[sam lawhon]

I will be mainly hunting predators and if a hog is within 100 yards then I would take it. When hunting predators I will be in prone or sitting position on sticks. So in the .223 caliber would the 20" barrel be good for shooting out to say 400 yards in the prone position? What is the hottest you can load a .223 bullet? Oh and with a 20" barrel should I use a 1:9 twist? Independence firearms is close so I will go there soon and get a feel for the different lengths.
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God Bless Our Troops!!!!!

[David K]

thanks for the clarification Burt....on the 1:7 and 55gr bullets, my statement is because it has a tendancy to overstabilize and can affect accuracy problems, so there are much better twist rates to stabilize the 55gr for accuracy in my opinion...
....and offhand shooting at any range is tough, i'm not very good at it, so I usually go prone or another position where I can rest on something....I don't think very many people can shoot anything accurately at distance offhand

Sam....my opinion is it comes down to what I said above, I can shoot a 16" barreled AR as well off the rest (prone or whatever) as well as a 20" barrel or longer, so for me it comes down to what I want to carry and how far....I need to get on one of my older computers and show some pics of coyotes that I took, I was hooked on varmint hunting years ago, going out before work in the mornings or after work in the evenings, switching my shifts around to go varmint hunting....sure is alot of fun...

Again I think it comes down to personal preference, so only giving my opinion, thats why I stated that I think you need to try them out....for many purposes that you stated, if you are only walking short distances, you may want to opt for a long barrel as it will get faster velocities......we know in many hunting cartridges of larger calibers, you would be hard pressed to find a barrel under 20", most are in the 24" range...and we carry them all over...

yes on the 1:9 twist barrel, most barrels out there for the .223 are 1:9 twist, it is a good overall twist rate to stabilize most bullets...

as far as what is the 'hottest you can load a .223 bullet', thats an open question, would depend on the bullet....as with most rifles if you are reloading, you would need to pull the load data books and work up to a load for a particular twist rate and particular gun......so I would decide on what bullet you wnat to shoot, what the compromises would be, i'm terrible because I build AR's for particular things, just varmints, larger game, fun, etc...guess I got too many of them, but I understand you want for varmints and the occasional hog, if that is the case I would load something that works well on both, good expansion on hogs at shorter distances and coyotes at any distance, hard to get a compromise and a ton of good bullets out there. Barnes introduced the TTSX in 50, 55 and 62gr, I've been anxious to get out there and try some, too many other project and my health is slowing me down....

The AR in .223 can be a neverending debate, I live shorter barrels, but don't mind longer barrels either, just don't like carrying them if I have to go to far walking, guess I'm so used to carrying my 4 pound bow around and not a 7 or 8 pound rifle or more lol, my varmint hunting usually consisted of driving my truck or ATV, park, waling out a 100 yards or so, wait a few minutes, start calling. I can say, i've shot a bunch of coyotes beyound 300 yards, the ones that would sit on a ridge and not want to come in until they could see something....one I really remember is a had two coyotes standing on a ridge at about 400 yards, one was bigger than the other, had a slight crosswind, had to figure out how much to hold to the side, I rested on the hill i was on, bipod, dropped the first coyote, the other coyote just stood there, looked too long at his partner and racked another round and dropped that coyote. Most varmints I take within 100 yards, I usually call them in, when they get to somewhere within 100 yards I lip squeek them to stop them and take the shot...very few times have I shot any varmints over 100 yards, I would say over 85% of my shots have been 100 yards or less.

[David K]

my main varmint rifle though for coyotes and smaller is a .17 Remington, custom, lightweight stock, lightweight barrel with a muzzle brake that kicks less than a .22 mag, i'm firing 20gr Vmax bullets at 4150 fps, tiny hole going in, no exit ever, complete mush inside the animal including fox, bocat, coyote....just don't hit the shoulder going in as its an explosion:

[Burt]

I realize it's being technical, but over stabilization isn't the same as "barely enough
to stablize". No doubt you meant to say over stabilized then.

[sam lawhon]

I like the .17 Remington a lot but I really
Want to have a gun in the AR platform.
Burt, I was planning on using v-max bullets for varmints an 62 gr. Barnes on pigs until I start loading em myself. Would these be the right bullets for the scenario?
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God Bless Our Troops!!!!!

[David K]

yea i agree Sam, wasn't suggesting the .17, its purely a varmint caliber and I would definetly go with the AR platform as they are alot of fun

Burt or Sam, have you tried any of the TTSX barnes bullets in .22 caliber? I haven't loaded any yet, ,but think they would be a great all around bullet

[sam lawhon]

Are you talking about a .22LR? The only barnes I have tried were
In 6.8 and they worked extremely well!
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God Bless Our Troops!!!!!

[David K]

no same, talking about .22 cal centerfire.... .224"

[Burt]

[sam lawhon]

Ok so I talked to Bill over at wilson combat and I am either going to go with a 6.8 spc II barrel, which he said regularly shoots 3/4" groups @100 yards using ammo it likes, or I am will get the .223 Wylde sniper barrel, which shoots sub 1/2" groups @100 yards and is gurranted to shoot sub MOA. So which should I go with? Im thinking the 6.8 will be my best bet for my purposes but I want your input to!
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[FrankT]

Sam, I am sure many use the 223 for hogs and have great results. The facts are that in FL many hog killing operations will not allow them to be used, too many wounded and un-retrieved animals. I know, proper placement and your shooting skills...la la la la...just sayin'

[Burt]

The 6.8 is a better all around choice.
_________________
Ban guns to eliminate crime ?
Let's ban cars, to eliminate drunk driving.
Makes as much sense.

[David K]

i agree, the 6.8 is a better way to go, the WC barrels are good choices...

[TORO]

Again, IMO, you're pushing the envelope with a .223 at 300-400yds.

I'd stick with the 6.8
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2012 Hog Totals=70
2013 Hog Totals=31
Fences fixed=1.9 miles
ATV Miles=298

[sam lawhon]

Well looks like I am going to be going with the 6.8 then, should I use a 16 or 18" barrel?
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God Bless Our Troops!!!!!