TEXASBOARS.COM

[Burt]

Ran across this on Savage Arms Face Book page:

300 AAC Blackout Chambering Cancelled:

Some time ago, Savage announced it would be chambering the Model 10 Precision
Carbine in 300 AAC Blackout. Since that time, we have tested many variants
of this cartridge in various barrel lengths and rates of twist. This exhaustive testing left us quite
unsatisfied with the accuracy we were able to get from the subsonic loads in this chambering.
Accuracy with the lighter, faster loads in this caliber was actually quite good. But we believe
the real value in this cartridge lies in the use of subsonic loads for suppressed rifles.
Therefore we have decided to scrap the project.

It is our understanding that pushing these heavy, slow bullets presents challenges not found
in typical loadings and that our experience is not unique. Subsequently, many in the industry
have simply adopted a lower standard for accuracy for these subsonic loads. While this
does seem reasonable and we don't criticize any in our industry that have taken this approach,
it just won't work for Savage.

Our brand was built on accuracy and we are too protective of our reputation for building
the most accurate factory rifles available. We would rather walk away
from this opportunity than sell a product that requires an explanation.
_________________
Ban guns to eliminate crime ?
Let's ban cars, to eliminate drunk driving.
Makes as much sense.

[David K]

interesting Burt, but I agree with it....

when my stamp gets here, i'm going to test a bunch of loads with the 6.8 1:7 twist upper I have. Bison recently tested a bunch of loads for accuracy with the heavier bullets, which seemed reasonable, but they also shot alot of supersonice loads where it worked well

I think one thing that Savage wasn't looking at was 'reasonable accuracy'....what did they expect to get out of such chambering for heavy bullets in a subsonic platform? Most uses of this cartridge would be for shot distances, 100 yards and less....because there are many more choices for supersonic performance, my 300 BLK will be purely a short distance subsonic load, suppressed.....but I think the 6.8 subsonic is a much better choice...mainly if you plan to uise it as an all around gun, supersonic at times, however thing about it, you have to re-zero from one to another, i know i'm not going to do that, i will have guns purely for supersonic and others for purely subsonic suppressed...

[Randy Tausch]

I think trying to use a 6.8 at subsonic speeds will result in very poor success on anything larger than a coyote and especially on pigs of any size. There simply will not be enough energy to get the job done. Again, that is why we use the 44 Mag. with the 300 gr. bullet and shoot it only at short range.
Randy
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Gen. III Night Vision Hog Hunting Guide Service-
Also Catfish Guiding

[Mike H]

I suspect Randy will be right. I corresponded a little with JD Jones of SSK Whisper rounds). He doesn't think too much of .44 mag, says he doesn't know of any .44 bullet that expands much at sub sonic velocities, but this is why Randy and Gerald use the 300 gr bullet - and I will, also - doesn't need to expand much to bore a big hole. JD also says he doesn't know of ANY conventional rifle bullets that will expand at sub sonic velocities. He uses Sierra Match Kings in 220 gr - 240 gr for 30 caliber sub sonic, because the bullet keyholes and "yaws" after penetration to create very destructive wounds. He did say that Lehi Defense had at least one bullet that "works" at sub sonic velocities for calibers through .50.

[David K]

[Burt]

Savage didn't say what their accuracy standard is for one thing.
Maybe anything over 1 inch @ 100 yards isn't good enough for them ?
Who knows.

Tumbling bullets - even a supersonic 7.62 x 39 or 7.62 NATO ( .308 Win ) FMJ
bullet will eventually slow down and tumble inside a target, if there's enough depth
to the target. They tend to end up base first.
Start rifle bullets at subsonic, and that happens sooner, or in less distance of
penetration in other words.

I've seen Sierra 200 grain MK bullets leave keyhole exits in deer hit broadside
@ 350 - 400 yards in years past. They had a MV of 2,400 fps or so to start with.
( Remington 40-X rifle in .30-06 )
_________________
Ban guns to eliminate crime ?
Let's ban cars, to eliminate drunk driving.
Makes as much sense.

[Burt]

[Ron Myers]

The more I read about this the more I think if I ever get a suppressor it will be for .308 due to all the issues you all have already brought up.

[Ron Brown]

[Burt]

Huey has been using 170 grain Hornady RN bullet in a bolt action Remington
.308 with a 1:12 twist and subsonic loads. He told me he's getting 4 inch groups.
He didn't say at what distance though.
_________________
Ban guns to eliminate crime ?
Let's ban cars, to eliminate drunk driving.
Makes as much sense.

[David K]

[Burt]

[David K]

what I'm saying, if you took two exact bullets, same construction or should I say model, and created one for a 308 and the other for a 6.8, the 6.8 will be longer because it has to go somewhere, which will be length...therefore you should theoretically be able to create either heavier bullets for a higher diameter...

for instance, on the right is a 200gr Woodleigh for the 6.8, theoretically a .308 bullet of the same construction should be shorter...and we know how bullet depth makes a difference in pressures and performance

[Burt]

[David K]

yea i didn't describe that very well. The two main bullets people use for the 300 BLK are 220gr and 240gr, but it can be inconsistent because of the case shape, which is why something like the .44 MAG subsonic is a good platform, the case mouth is wide and can shoot some 300 grain or other bullets with consistency because powder is below the bullet and not below, around, etc...

[Burt]

Dang, took a lot of effort to get all that specified, whew.
Now you're talking.

I had to rethink and re-state this. Now, the question is, would the .300 BLK be more accurate
if the 220 and 240 grain bullets didn't take up as much powder space ?
Given that the speed can't exceed 1,050 fps by much, how much of the problem
is due to those lower speeds and twist rates in the barrel with those long bullets ?

How much if any would accuracy be improved by using a case that keeps more
of the bullet out of the powder space ?
_________________
Ban guns to eliminate crime ?
Let's ban cars, to eliminate drunk driving.
Makes as much sense.

[David K]

good question Burt, I'm sure it affects accuracy, but just how much.

I've seen on the forums guys shooting 220 SMK's and getting just over 1 MOA and shooting Hornady 225's and getting just under an inch using 8.4gr of AA2400, and bullets seemed to stabilize.

Now a good question, how much case space is remaining with those long bullets? i'm not sure i've read that were someone checked case capacity that was remaining with certain bullets.

[Burt]

[David K]

yea i don't know Burt, they were using 300 BLK barrels, I wasn't able to get close to an inch, was about 2.5 - 3.0"....but have seen others report better, but I haven't loaded much for it and shot some factory ammo also.

Thinking about Savage, was it accuracy they couldn't get, or maybe not enough sales, hard to tell, would like to see their results.

[Randy Tausch]

JD Jones is wrong about 44 mag. bullets not expanding at sub-sonic speeds. The 300 GR Hornaday XTP bullets we use often expand to nearly 3/4" in diameter. Usually we get a total pass through when hogs are hit in the neck but when one is shot further back in the shoulder, we often find the bullet just under the skin on the oppositre side and they are very well expanded in virtually every case.
After literally hundreds of hogs killed with these guns, it will be very difficult for me to be convinced that there is any better sub-sonic platform.
Randy
_________________
WWW.NIGHTHOGS.COM
Gen. III Night Vision Hog Hunting Guide Service-
Also Catfish Guiding

[FrankT]

Randy, I think I will take your "real life" experience as the definitive word for my purposes! without a suppressor how loud would that round be out of a TC with the .44 18-20"barrel?

[Mike H]

Randy, I did not agree with him, either. He also told me he had experience with the .45 ACP round in a Contender pistol with a suppresser, said it killed deer good to 100 yards, could hit a metal gong target at 400. I don't really believe that too much. I am anxious for it to stop raining for long enough for me to shoot a few with my .44 and try to recover bullets to check for expansion. I fully expect to find some. Of course, Mr. Jones is selling the .300 Whisper cartridge, doesn't want to recommend anything else as very good.

Frank, without a suppressor, it ill be LOUD.

[FrankT]

Burt, how less loud that a full power load, like 1/2- 9/10, just an estimate if you can..Thanks

[Burt]

[Mike H]

That's some pretty good shootin'!

[Randy Tausch]

Frank,
I have no experience at all shooting that load from an un-suppressed rifle but I would guess it to be about the same as the difference between 44 mag. and 44 special. Probably only a small amount of noticable difference.
If it were me and I wanted to use the 300 gr. XTP bullet in an un-suppressed rifle, I would just load it at normal speed for the 44 and not worry about the sound difference. It is a great bullet. Before we started using the suppressed rifles, I used PMC 240 Gr. JHP's with very good success and really good expansion.
Randy
_________________
WWW.NIGHTHOGS.COM
Gen. III Night Vision Hog Hunting Guide Service-
Also Catfish Guiding

[FrankT]

Thanks Randy, right now I use the 240 gr Hornady XTP that is a handload 200-300fps faster than the hornady factory load and it works well. He has some 300's made up but I have never needed them.
44 special makes sense, I guess I will just forget about it then.

[SwampThing]

Frank,

I have used reduced 44 mag loads in my Winchester Trapper Carbine (not suppressed). They are much more quiet than full loads in the same weapon. That said, they are still MUCH louder than a 22. (I am judging the relative noise level through ear phones, so take my comparison as very rough, at best.) Personally, I would not shoot the reduced loads without hearing protection, whereas I've been known to shoot 22 rifles without.

By the way, the reduced loads were with 240 grain LSWC and they cleanly took many pigs with neck shots. All pigs were DRT.

Mark
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[FrankT]

Thanks Mark, I think i will stay with what I got and make noise! Out in the field for 1-2 shots I don't wear hearing protection but do at the range.

[Gerald R]

Randy alerted me to this thread this morning, so I thought I might chime in a bit with my opinion of the best suppressed cartridge. Unlike Randy, I don't believe that the .44 magnum is THE BEST cartridge for suppressed use. Right now, I am thinking that the .458 SOCOM is the best on the market.

I hope Burt will correct me if I'm wrong, but heavy bullets and small case capacity are what one needs to look for when trying to kill tough animals at subsonic speeds. It is that simple.

This being said and unless I'm mistaken, 600 grain bullets can be loaded into the SOCOM at full load traveling at 1000 fps. It would be hard to find a much better match of weight and full charge velocity than that in a subsonic platform.

That being said, .44 magnum bullets can be purchased ANYWHERE at probably half to 1/3 the cost (I haven't looked it up) of the .458. Also, 90% of the hogs we shoot with the .44 are just as dead as if we had shot them with the SOCOM.

For ease of use, the .44 has the edge. For lethality at any cost (wildcats not withstanding), I would go with the .458.

To end the discussion on bullet expansion of the .44, here is a 300 grain XTP I removed from the brown hog on the right this morning. His head was down feeding, quartering to my right. The bullet entered his right ear, passed through the spine, broke the left shoulder clean in two and lodged just under the skin

http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac64/NightHogsDotcom/002-2.jpg

http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac64/NightHogsDotcom/RandyandGerald007.jpg